What Would Walt Say? Defense’s Closing Argument


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JUDGE JULIA: Defense your turn.

PHILPOT: Thank you Your Honor. Let me begin by saying to both you and the jurors that I apologize, quite frankly for wasting your time. This suit is really kind of silly isn’t it?  Is trying a man for his innocent and benevolent passion a basis for this court? Would we put a stamp collector on trial? Would we put a Good Samaritan on trial for helping others?

And because of that, I am going to shed conventional legalese and speak from my own magical heart.

Here’s a guy whose “hobby” is Walt Disney World. Shame on him!

Here’s a guy who soaked up all that it could offer. Shame on him!

Here’s a guy who wanted to Maximize the Magic not only for himself but for anyone who made either their first or their thousandth trip to Walt Disney World. Shame on him!

OK. Here’s a guy who may have gotten carried away now and then. I guess it’s safe to say that only the most “committed” Walt Disney World fan would know which bathrooms are best to use at any given time. Although I’m also sure that at one  time or another we’d all like to know where the nearest restroom rests! Shame on him!

You know. I just realized that both the plaintiff’s attorney and I have made tactical errors.

We should have asked our witnesses questions like ” As a result of Fred’s hobby;

Did you save money”?

“Did you get more out of your time?”

“Did you get a chance to soak in the majesty of what Walt Disney World offers people all the way from a child’s eyes to a grizzled veteran’s eyes?”

Is it possible that each of us did not ask the most important question? And that would be,

“Did you have a better or a worse time at Walt Disney World as a result of Fred’s concerns for detail and for planning?”

“Did he help you Maximize the Magic”?

If we started this trial all over again I’d dare plaintiff to have asked those questions and yes I would have have asked them more clearly too. Because in the end, the Farkle Family and all the witness – guests we could have called would have overwhelmingly said yes!

So it its really hard isn’t it? To come in with any sort of a verdict other than “innocent” for Fred Farkle.

Thank you Your Honor.

JUDGE JULIA: Thank you Mr. Philpot. I am going to turn this case over to the jurors. In this case the jurors will be those who have followed this case in this blog and who will vote by posting to this blog below. We will give a reasonable time for readers to consider testimony and evidence and are charged with deciding whether Fred Farkle is guilty or not guilty of

Over the top / excessive obsession with planning for Walt Disney World trips.

Readers may respond by voting on the poll below. When the results are computed I will weigh in myself and impose  a sentence if he is found guilty.

Thank you


What Would Walt Say? Plaintiff’s Closing Argument


JUDGE JULIA: Miss Francis, you are prepared to deliver your closing statement?

FRANCIS: I am Your Honor. Judge Julia and to you the jury. Thank you for your participation and interest in bringing this matter to conclusion. Your Honor, Plaintiff has no intention to punish Mr. Farkle for his zeal and passion about Walt Disney and Walt Disney World. For sure, there are millions of fans that draw much, much enjoyment from what Disney World is all about and Plaintiff would never presume to quarrel with the “Wisdom of the Crowd”. In another words, as someone said, “Fifty million Frenchmen can’t be wrong.”

Plaintiff’s quarrel and quest to find Mr. Farkle culpable is more nearly about Fred’s combination of obsession with autocratic and unilateral imposition of this same obsession on those whom he loves most.

Your Honor you and the jury have heard his family testify about the excesses to which he subjected them. Your Honor, while some might have been amused by his son’s own preoccupation with Disney, in my mind this only confirms that Mr. Farkle’s actions have adversely affected this young man’s psyche.

Your Honor, the testimony of his family says all that needs to be  said and proves beyond any question that Fred must be stopped.

In closing Your Honor, Plaintiff does not seek harsh or punitive damages. Plaintiff seeks relief from one man’s dream.

Thank you.

The Mouse Himself Testifies


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PHILPOT: OK Mr. Mouse we won’t belittle the court by asserting that you are actually Mickey Mouse.

MICKEY MOUSE: No, I am not but in the eyes of my bosses I am the Cast Member who plays him, personifies him.

PHILPOT: And as such I am trusting that the court accepts your testimony.

(He looks to Judge Julia for approval)

JUDGE JULIA: We will accept the Cast Member’s testimony as valid as long as you limit your questioning to this individual’s experiences with Disney World guests.

PHILPOT: Thank you your Honor, of course!

PHILPOT: How long have you been the go-to Mickey Mouse in Walt Disney World.

MICKEY MOUSE: Well, heh, heh. Other Cast Members also play me at other times. I do have a life you know beyond this character and costume. But I am glad to say that I have played Mickey Mouse for several years now in the Magic Kingdom.

PHILPOT: And some of the activities that you perform?

MICKEY MOUSE: Oh I might  dance with Minnie. I might stroll the streets and attractions to greet Park guests. I pose for lots of pictures and sign lots of autographs! I even had carpal tunnel syndrome once … you know … from signing autographs. Heh heh. I give lots of hugs.

PHILPOT: Have you ever met the defendant?

MICKEY MOUSE: Can’t say that I have.

PHILPOT: Have you met or seen people who may “behave” like the defendant?

MICKEY MOUSE: If you mean the uber-planners, yes, yes, of course. Just about every day.

PHILPOT: Those that you have seen, can you generalize their behavior and actions?

MICKEY MOUSE: In my opinion? I am grateful for those who plan and have been proactive about maximizing the most of Walt Disney World.

PHILPOT: Grateful? Why?

MICKEY MOUSE: For several reasons! They help to keep things running smoothly in all the theme parks. They don’t clog wait lines, moan and groan about queuing up for a long line. They know where they are going and know that the best plan is a plan to plan for all of what you may want to do.

However many of them there are in a given day and adding in their families and friends they may lead is seven-dwarfed, heh, heh, by those who wander and wonder and wander and wonder some more. Those folks sometimes minimize the magic by their confusion and lack of planning.

PHILPOT: Well Mickey, that is the longest speech I have ever heard from you! Thank you. No more questions.

JUDGE JULIA: Francis, your turn.

FRANCIS: Thank you your Honor. Mickey, so you approve of timetables, timelines, spreadsheets, iPhone apps, tweeting, alarm beeps, etc.?

MICKEY MOUSE: You know I do.

FRANCIS: Because?

MICKEY MOUSE: People like Fred Farkle help other people enjoy all of what can be found in Walt Disney World.

FRANCIS: You have also heard about the meltdowns people have and possibly caused by the excessive zeal of the Freds of Walt Disney World.

MICKEY MOUSE: Heh, heh, I am no statistician, I’m just an icon, but this icon says that more Guests suffer at the hands of the non-planners than at the those of the Fred Farkles of the World.

FRANCIS: No more questions.

JUDGE JULIA: Mr. Philpot.

PHILPOT: The defense rests your honor.

JUDGE JULIA: Very well, tomorrow we will hear closing arguments so that the jury can be polled.

(She rises, courtroom members rise, she exits right)

Cross Examine Mr. Les Tello


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FRANCIS: So Mr. Tello, it looks like you have a bit of a following judging from the courtroom’s response.

TELLO: Well yes, sure, I have worked hard to meet the needs and interests of people like Fred. And I guess they appreciate that. I appreciate that they appreciate!

FRANCIS: You do this as public service? “Pro bono” as we attorneys would call it?

TELLO: I used to but no longer, it has become my career now. Although I do a lot of charity work connected to Walt Disney.

FRANCIS: Soooo, it might be in your own commercial interest to encourage a person like Fred?

TELLO: Maybe you could say that. But that isn’t the point at all.

FRANCIS: What is the point.

TELLO: Fred is the point and how you are trying to portray him is the point. He’s no raving fanatic willing to risk life, limb, and his family for his passion. Fred should be admired for his appreciation of Disney World and for his zeal in trying to make it the best possible experience for his family.

FRANCIS: So you approve of his SWAT team approach to visiting Disney World.

PHILPOT: Your Honor I object. The word SWAT …

JUDGE JULIA: Yes Mr. Philpot, objection sustained. Jurors will disregard the word SWAT as it is meant to imply a negative, all-out fanatic, no victims taken alive mindset. It will be up to jurors to decide to what extent if any, Mr. Farkle’s actions are any of those things.

FRANCIS: Mr. Tello, so you approve of Mr. Farkle’s approach to touring Disney World.

TELLO: I approve it on two counts. One is that what he does makes a lot of sense. And secondly I approve it for those who want to maximize their magic at Walt Disney World.

FRANCIS: No more questions.

JUDGE JULIA: You may step down Mr. Tello.

(Tello rises to leave the witness stand, courtroom audience erupts into more applause. Tello is their idol.)

(JUDGE JULIA pounds gavel for silence but stifles a smile.)

JUDGE JULIA: Mr. Philpot, any more witnesses?

FRANCIS: Yes Your Honor, we call Mickey Mouse.

(A Cast Member in his Mickey Mouse costume enters the courtroom. Courtroom audience applauds again.)

FRANCIS: Your Honor, I object. Mr. Philpot is making a travesty of this proceeding.

PHILPOT: Your Honor, to the contrary, who better to comment to Mr. Farkle’s actions and motives than the Mouse? Now don’t get me wrong. I do not pretend to say that Mickey here is the actual Mouse himself. He is a Cast Member who has played this part for many years and is now entrusted by the Walt Disney Company to be one of the new talking characters. This individual is well qualified to offer testimony about the accusations against Fred.

JUDGE JULIA: I will rule on the admissibility of this individual in our next session.

(She rises. Courtroom rises, next blog, next session, the Mouse.) 

How Many Bathrooms Are There in American Adventure?


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JUDGE JULIA: Mr. Philpot, any more witnesses?

PHILPOT: Yes your Honor, defense calls Mr. Les Tello.

Les Tello, stands, some in courtroom break out in applause.

JUDGE JULIA (pounds gavel): Oh we’ll have none of that in my courtroom.

Les Tello takes the stand

JUDGE JULIA: Mr. Philpot please proceed.

PHILPOT: Mr. Tello, clearly some of the individuals in the courtroom know you. But suppose you tell the rest of us what your credentials may be insofar as this case is concerned.

TELLO: Well I am an author of several books about Walt Disney World. I do a weekly podcast about Disney World. I answer questions about vacationing there . I sometimes offer touring advice and am myself an avid and unashamed devotee of the traditions and themes of anything that has to do with Walt Disney.

PHILPOT: Do you know my client?

TELLO: I have never met him but he has sent me an occasional email question.

PHILPOT: Based on your interactions with your fan base and on what you know about Mr. Farkle and this case would you characterize him as an outlandish, excessive Disney-nut.

MONGELLO: Well I am an attorney too, and before Ms. Francis objects to your question I will say quickly that I am no psychologist and don’t know Fred first hand. But look, I get emails, questions, meet with, and have lots of other interactions with many, many, folks like Fred. In my view Fred is just a good guy who happens to enjoy all that there is offered by Walt Disney World. And folks not like Fred, who may have a different world view from what he has really shouldn’t judge him for that.

PHILPOT: Can you add anything else?

TELLO: Many people don’t realize that Walt Disney World is  more than Cinderella’s Castle. It is a huge and complex place that can intimidate and overwhelm a visitor unless they do their homework. They can also shortchange themselves by not learning about packages, tours, special offers, and events, let alone using some sort of haphazard touring strategy that leaves out more than leaves in. Fellows like Fred actually serve a very positive function for those he helps.

PHILPOT: Thank you Les, Ms. Francis, your witness.

Cross Examining Fred Farkle. Disney World “Extremist?”


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JUDGE JULIA: Miss Francis. Do you wish to cross examine Mr. Farkle?

FRANCIS: Most assuredly and most briefly too, Your Honor.

JUDGE JULIA: Proceed then.

FRANCIS: With your permission Your Honor, first I am going to ask the two individuals in the rear of the courtroom to rise.

JUDGE JULIA: I will allow it for now.

FRANCIS: Thank you. (She points to the a man and a woman. They rise.) Mr. Farkle, do you know the two individuals who are standing?

FARKLE: I am afraid not.

FRANCIS: They are members of DWD. Do you know the group?

FARKLE: Actually I have heard of them. Disney World De-Programmers. They are hired to take  in individuals who may be too preoccupied with Walt Disney and Walt Disney World and help them stay clear of their so-called addiction.

FRANCIS: Mr. Farkle, do you consider yourself a candidate for DWD?

FARKLE: Of course not.

FRANCIS: I wonder Mr. Farkle, can you tell me the capacity of the Men’s Room in the American Adventure Pavilion?

FARKLE: Yes, it has 6 stalls and 12 urinals, it …

FRANCIS: Thank you Mr. Farkle. Your Honor no more questions.

Defense calls Mr. Fred Farkle


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FRANCIS: Your Honor the Plaintiff rests.

JUDGE JULIA: Very well, Mr. Philpot is the Defense ready?

PHILPOT: Yes we are of course, the Defense calls Mr. Fred Farkle.

Fred Farkle rises from his seat, smiles amiably at his family who return the smile and he proceeds to the witness stand.

PHILPOT: Well Mr. Farkle, at last.

FARKLE: Excuse me?

PHILPOT: Yes, at last, at last you can explain yourself.

FARKLE: Well I guess that is true.

PHILPOT: I think it is fair to say that Walt Disney and Walt Disney World are your passion?

FARKLE: Not exactly, my family is my first passion. But yes you could say that Walt Disney and Walt Disney World are my hobby although hobby may be too weak a word.

PHILPOT: Meaning?

FARKLE: Stamp Collectors, gardeners, fitness, scrapbooking, are what most people call hobby. I’d guess that their enthusiasts might be accused of spending too much time indulging their interests.

PHILPOT: You have certainly been accused of that.

FARKLE: Ah, but here’s the difference, maybe the number one reason I get so invested in Disney World is that I do this FOR my loved ones.

PHILPOT: You invest all this energy because of your family? You plan, some say over-plan, reserve, save, plot touring plans because you love your family so much?

FARKLE (hesitates): Well I don’t want to cast myself as some sort of self-less saint. I DO love and admire so much about Walt Disney World on so many levels. What I’ve been lucky enough to do is to transform my passion to maximize the magic for my family.

PHILPOT: Mr. Farkle before we come back to your family let’s understand the “on many levels” phrase.

FARKLE: OK, I am 44 years old. I am not some sort of man-boy who wants to get Winnie the Pooh’s autograph at a Character Meet. I am 44 years old. I don’t thrill to the Dumbo ride. I am 44 years old, I don’t try to find every Hidden Mickey on property.

But I did get a tremendous kick when I managed to help my young son get an autograph from Pooh. I thought it was terrific when the touring plan we used from the Unofficial Guide helped us get on the Dumbo ride almost without a wait. I do enjoy pointing out a Hidden Mickey to my kids or to others.

I am an MBA with a specialty in organizational management. I enjoy seeing and being part of the Disney Magic on that level too. It’s wonderful to see how the Cast Members are trained to and willing go out of their way as routine, to make every visitor feel that magic. It’s wonderful from a systems standpoint to marvel at how Disney plans for attractions to be created by Imagineers and put in place so well. It’s a kick to see how their planning and their creativity come together to create magical experiences for children, youngsters, and for adults too.

Not many businesses can claim the kind of success the Walt Disney Company has had, you know, to maintain its vision, to carry it out, to make it fit together so well.

PHILPOT: Come on Fred, you also like to wave to Mickey too. Don’t cast yourself as this MBA theoretician.

FARKLE (Smiles): Well, yeah, sure. I didn’t know that was criminal.

PHILPOT: Now let’s get back to family.

FARKLE: Many people who go to Walt Disney World, especially for the first time are easily overwhelmed. There is so much to see and do. On top of that coming here with a family can cost a pretty penny. To me, I like to game the system so to speak, by making sure I know so much about the packages, the plans, the costs, the discounts that I can maximize the magic by getting the most for the hard earned money we spend here.

PHILPOT: So the 180 day out reservations, the to – dining – plan – or – not – to – do – dining- plan, the kind of tickets to buy, the best discounts on hotels, the zig-zag and zag and zig attraction plans they all …?

FARKLE: … Maximize the Magic.

PHILPOT: No more questions.

The Bizarro-Farkle


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JUDGE JULIA: Miss Francis, next witness

FRANCIS: We have one more your honor, we call Bernie Bizzarro to the stand.

Bernie Bizarro comes forward. He is dressed very casually, almost as a throwback to the hippies’ era. His family all similarly dressed are in the gallery. He gives them all a big wave and wink as he takes the stand.

FRANCIS: Mr. Bizarro I understand you have at least two things in common with Mr. Farkle and at least one that is absolutely not in common with him.

BERNIE: Well we are all in the brotherhood of man after all so even our deepest darkest enemies have more in common with us than not. You do know that Love is the answer?

FRANCIS: Yes I am sure that is true. Let’s start with what you have in common.

BERNIE: Other than being brother souls?

FRANCIS: Yes Mr. Bizarro, should I narrow my question?

BERNIE: No lady I get it. We are Mr. Farkle’s neighbors although I’m sure that Mr. Farkle would prefer that we are not.

FRANCIS: Because?

BERNIE: Well Fred likes his house and his yard very tidy and well, neither of those are my family’s priorities. We like to go with the flow if you know what I mean.

FRANCIS: So you are his neighbor and do you share any other commonalities?

BERNIE: Yes. We both love Disney World!!!

FRANCIS: How nice, what is it that you like about Walt Disney World?

BERNIE: Oh there is so much to love. The fantasy! The whimsy! The creativity! It is the happiest place on earth you know, so magical, like the mushrooms I grow in my backyard …

FRANCIS: Well let’s move off that for the time being. Aside from your um, life style what else do you not have in common.

BERNIE: Well like you know, Mr. Farkle is a wonderful creature but while we both love Walt Disney World and we may even go there as often as he does, well, we just don’t do the planning thing.

FRANCIS: Please go on.

BERNIE: Well like you know, We don’t make reservations we just jump in the old flower power van and motor on down when we feel the urge. We don’t make reservations. We’ll flop in any place that will have us in Orlando. We don’t make reservations for eating. We don’t use any touring plans. We are the opposite of Fred. And like you know we are the better for it.

FRANCIS: How so?

BERNIE: No stress! No ulcers! No spreadsheets! No timetables! Sleep when we want. Get up when we want, it’s way cool that way.

FRANCIS: So you would say that your approach to touring Walt Disney World is a far better way on many levels.

BERNIE: For sure!

FRANCIS: No more questions Your Honor?

JUDGE JULIA: Mr. Philpot?

PHILPOT: Yes thank you. Hello Mr. Bizarro.

BERNIE: Call me Bernie man.

PHILPOT: Ok Bernie, how do you make a living?

BERNIE: Well you could say I am self employed. Yeah, an entrepreneur. I sell what I can to those who want what I have.

PHILPOT: I think you’ll need to be more specific.

BERNIE: Well I usually deal in natural organic compounds for the health conscious.

PHILPOT: I see, Perhaps those mushrooms you mentioned earlier?

BERNIE: Perhaps.

PHILPOT: But you do love taking your family to Walt Disney World and when you go you deliberately go without any sort of planning whatsoever?

BERNIE: You got that right. Life is too short to plan it.

PHILPOT: Ok, you get up late, assuming you found a place to stay, you go to the parks and just kind of wonder around and get on any old line that strikes your fancy. True?

BERNIE: Oh yeah, that sounds just fine!

PHILPOT: How many attractions do you think that you might actually get on using your fly by the seat of your pixie dust approach?

BERNIE: Oh maybe two or three in a day. You know, the lines get mighty long sometimes.

PHILPOT: But you do manage to get to eat every day?

BERNIE: Oh sure, but sometimes we have to try several places, even in the counter service offerings. You know the lines get mighty long sometimes.

PHILPOT: Yes Mr. Bizarro I do know. Now you said you make your living by selling mushrooms and the like. So would you also say that your hard earned funds are used to their advantage on your forays into the World?

BERNIE: Well you know, by your standard probably not.

PHILPOT: And the fact that you have no plans and don’t get to experience too many attractions with no planning that you really don’t maximize the magic so to speak?

FRANCIS: Well you know, maybe not.

PHILPOT: Thank you Mr. Bizarro. No more questions .

Fabio Farkle and Walt Disney World


Last we visited this Trial of the Century, Philpot had finished his cross-examination of Francine Farkle, Fred’s teen-age daughter. Judge Julia had invited the Plaintiff’s lawyer to call her next witness.

Judge Julia: Ms. Francis, next witness?

Francis: Yes, you Honor, Plaintiff calls Fabio Farkle to the stand.

Fabio Farkle, Fred’s 7 year old son, looks at his mother, then his father and proceeds to the stand.

Judge Julia: We will waive swearing in for the child’s age.

Ms. Francis: Fabio, you’re 7 years old?

Fabio: Yes I am as a matter of fact. I am in the second grade.

FRANCIS: Good for you, and how many times have you been to Walt Disney World with your family.

FABIO: That depends.

FRANCIS: Depends? On what.

FABIO: On how you define “been to”. I have as an infant and as toddler and then as a pre-schooler, and now as a primary grade schooler and …

FRANCIS: Let’s go with that.

FABIO: But then you could or should add in my presence in Walt Disney World in utero. You do know what in utero means?

Francis is beginning to smell a rat, or is it a mouse?

FRANCIS: I do know what in utero means. Do you?

FABIO: Well of course, it means while I was gestating in my mother’s womb. If you count that then it is two more times I believe. And then again if we make the case that my father’s sperm and my mother’s eggs, one and one of which eventually merging to make me a zygote, then you could probably add seven or eight other times….

FRANCIS: That’s quite enough. We will just use the times when you as a viable, born, human being have been in Walt Disney World.

FABIO: Ok then, it would be 18 times.

FRANCIS: Of course you remember them all.

FABIO: Well my conscious memory of course begins with my birth but given that my mind was more preoccupied, as an infant, with being fed and changed I am sure that I don’t remember my initial forays into the World. But I am told by both of my parental units that it has been 18 times.

FRANCIS: Would you agree that your father’s preoccupation with planning and going to Walt Disney World with you and your sister has affected you?

FABIO: Certainly.

FRANCIS (triumphantly): Very well. Please tell the Judge how these experiences have affected you.

FABIO: Well my first response is that I have been and continue to be disappointed by my father.

FRANCIS (smugly): Please proceed.

FABIO: Well dad has failed us all miserably.

FRANCIS: Please explain!

FABIO: Dad has failed in executing his plans through poor calculation, through misjudgment, and through ineffective assessment of all data available to him!

FRANCIS: You mean to say …?

FABIO: If dad had listened to a modicum of my suggestions to him we would all have had both a better time at the happiest place on earth and we would have had an even more efficient time. I have calculated crowd calendars since I have been three. I have developed logarithms and have programmed my smart phone accurate to a statistical probability of less than point zero, zero, zero one.

FRED is beaming

FRANCIS (mortified): That will be all Fabio. Thank you. No more questions!!

JUDGE JULIA: Fabio, you may step down.

FABIO: Can I show you my autographed picture of Len Testa?

JUDGE JULIA: No, that is fine. Mr. Philpot?

PHILPOT: Oh no, no thank you, Fabio’s testimony is irrefutable.

JUDGE JULIA: That’s for sure. Ms. Francis?

Cross Examining Francine Farkle


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PHILPOT: Francine, you did say you were 15 going on 16?


PHILPOT: To your knowledge is 16 or for that matter 15 a legal age of adulthood in any state in the union?

FRANCINE: I have no idea.

PHILPOT: For the record, Francine, it is not. In fact you are a minor, who is subject to the supervision of her parents.

FRANCINE: So that means I am not entitled to my opinions?

PHILPOT: Oh you can think what you think but what you think doesn’t necessarily translate to anything legal.


PHILOMENA: Your Honor, surely counsel does not expect to argue with this young lady about matters of legality.

JUDGE JULIA: Yes you are right Ms. Francis. Mr. Philpot get to the point.

PHILPOT: I was pointing out that a teenaged young lady may typically object to most anything that her dad or her mom for that matter may expect as her parent. Ms. Farkle let’s get to that point. I am sure that you NEVER object to what either your mom or your dad may have expected of you that had nothing whatsoever to do with things Disney World?

FRANCINE: Well no, of course not. I mean I know they’re my parents and all but I object to plenty of things they want me to do or not to do.

PHILPOT: So your anecdotes about what your dad has (air quotes) imposed on you might be part of your normal tendency to assert yourself?

FRANCINE: Well I don’t know. I mean, think about what I told you about…. heat prostration, yanked off lines, military schedules….

PHILPOT: Francine, do you have any idea what trip to Walt Disney World might cost?

FRANCINE: Well no, I bring some of my own spending money but my parents pay for the vacation.

PHILPOT: Would you agree that even if the vacation plans were on a strict and limited budget, the price for four people can add up pretty quickly.

FRANCINE: I guess so.

PHILPOT: Of course. Now your dad’s planning, excessive you say, are they meant to get the most enjoyment out of the money he spends?

FRANCINE: I guess you will have ask him!

PHILPOT: In due time, Francine. Thank you. I have no more questions your Honor.

JUDGE JULIA:  Ms. Francis, next witness.